Change of Sky: An Interview with Nikki Iles

The first woman chief conductor of a German radio big band on her musical life and breakthroughs

When I saw the news of Nikki Iles’ appointment as principal conductor of the NDR Bigband, I leapt from my chair with joy. On April 3rd, NDR announced that the British pianist, composer, and conductor will be the first woman to take the lead at any of the state-funded German radio big bands. Nikki’s initial appointment is for two years.

My interest in Nikki’s music grew significantly with the 2023 recording Face to Face, which presented her stunning work as composer-in-residence with the NDR Bigband. Nikki’s compositions here are both muscular and sensitive, drawing from anywhere on the big band-jazz orchestra continuum she likes. Face to Face was named one of the Guardian’s 10 best jazz albums of 2023.

In our Zoom interview on Tuesday, Nikki was bright, funny, and so forthcoming that she answered several of my questions before I could ask them. This was opportune, since I was getting over laryngitis when we spoke. You’ll not hear as much of my raspy voice.

Please enjoy Nikki’s insightful musings. Audio and transcript below. Share away!

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Michelle Mercer: Nikki Iles, I'm so glad that you're here today. I'm so excited to talk with you.

Nikki Iles: Thank you. It's lovely to be here.

Michelle: So before we get to your exciting new appointment, some readers of Call & Response may not be familiar with the German radio big bands. Can you just tell us a little bit about them and their role in European jazz culture?

Nikki: I mean, they're very lucky, particularly nowadays. They have four big bands, salaried big bands, part of the radio stations, and each has its own aesthetic, really. There's the WDR, amazing, who works with Bob Mintzer and Vince Mendoza. They're the chief conductors. And Jim McNeely, one of my favorite writers, he was with the Frankfurt Big Band. And the NDR band is the one I have the role with. They are kind of slightly more left field, you might say, that kind of orchestra. It's a radio big band. And so they are providing material for the radio, really. And so there is more commercial music that's played and they do all sorts of other things, but there's a real artistic agenda for each of them. They're all quite different. So it's a luxury in this day and age.

I mean, in England, we have nothing now. The BBC big band, the musicians aren't on a salary anymore and it's just the odd commercial gig. So it's a wonderful thing. And that's why many of the American composers/arrangers come over to Germany. So lots of new music. And they are responsible for a lot of the new output now, which is fantastic.

Michelle: So you were recently appointed director of the NDR Bigband, and you have quite a bit of history with this band. Can you tell us a little bit about your background with the NDR?

Nikki: Yes, well, funny enough, I couldn't imagine doing anything like this in lockdown. As near as that, really. I wrote for big band on and off over the years. I've been a piano player on the British scene, and I've always written for everything I'm involved with, whether it's my groups or school groups, national youth groups, London Sinfonietta. To be honest, I'd always looked at these big bands . . . I knew of them and never saw myself working with them, thinking this was the pinnacle.

Well, they have a lovely program with the NDR Bigband, which is an open call for scores, and they're looking for new writers. So the fourth trumpet player, Percy Pursglove—who’s actually British, but he has a salaried post there—he let many of us know in Britain, the people that wrote for big band, send something in. And to be honest, maybe before lockdown, I wouldn't have sent something in. I thought, what the hell, nothing to lose. They look through the scores and the ones that are worthy for a play get a chance. With this, I got through to that round, and then the band actually mark out of five . . . every band member marks out of five for each piece, and I seemed to get good scores. This was in 2021, so I was invited to come for a first week. So it was kind of music I'd been writing for various things in Britain, so nothing new. And it seemed to go well, and then I got invited back for recordings and some gigs.

Nikki Iles and the NDR Big Band. Photo: Tatiana Gorilovsky

And then they asked me to be composer-in-residence in 2023. So that was quite significant for me. I was getting to know the musicians, which is so important. And I've been able to really sort of think about doing this. I mean, I've just been somebody who wrote on—well, it's a big part of what I do—but I wrote on the side. And then funny enough, one of the musicians said last year, “Could you see yourself being the chief conductor?” And I said, “No way. No way.” Just because, I don't know, I just hadn't seen many women doing it. And I quite enjoy being out and about working with lots of people. So I had to really think about it. So that's the kind of background to finally being offered and then finally accepting.

Michelle: Well, we're all so glad that you're there. Are you the first woman chief conductor of one of the bands . . . one of the German radio big bands?

Nikki: Yes, I am. Miho Hazama is the chief conductor of, she's one of the first ones, well, is the first, I think, in Denmark. But I think I'm the first in the ARD, which is like the [German] BBC organization of all the ensembles, of the NDR as well. I'm the first woman.

Michelle: I want to take a very nuanced approach to discussing gender in jazz with you. Because one of the things I've appreciated about you is you've emphasized that it's wonderful for women to have more opportunities, but they must be on the basis of merit, right? And so I've noticed that even when you composed a beautiful piece—it may be my favorite of yours—for Geri Allen called Wild Oak, this is a bit of advocacy for her; she didn't always get the recognition she should have in her lifetime. Yet this is on the basis of affinity: she’s one of your favorite contemporary composers, right? Having acknowledged all of that, what does this opportunity mean to you?

Nikki: It’s a huge thing, really. But the thing with gender, I mean, it comes up all the time and you wonder whether the big band world is actually ready to embrace women in these roles, in leadership roles, in such a male-dominated world. I’m still struck looking at the big bands in colleges and in jazz clubs and what you see on social media, that it's still chronically sort of lacking in diversity, isn’t it?

The issue of gender doesn't resonate with me in a way. I feel conflicted when the focus is on it in some ways. But in some ways I'm very proud to be the first. It is 2025, and it's still quite shocking that it's the first for a woman in some ways.

Michelle: Well, the first female member of one of the German radio big bands didn't arrive until, what, 2004? So you've come a long way in just 20 years. That's incredible.

Nikki: It’s ridiculous. It’s important because I'm 61 and you look at, for me, the mentors I had, they were few and far between, looking at the women in their 70s and 80s.¹ It has been, for me, in Britain, Norma Winstone. I don't know if you know Norma.

Michelle: Yes, of course.

Nikki: I mean, Norma, for me, smashed every kind of ceiling—in a quiet way, in some ways. I’ve worked with her a lot and I've known her since I was 18 and she's been a kind of beacon for me.

But it’s funny. I do think about things—I'm not somebody who doesn't think—but I never really, until #MeToo, I never felt I was being discriminated . . . I probably was being, but I didn't think about it because I didn't want it to . . . well, I think if I focused on that a lot, you get bitter. I want to work hard and sometimes if you didn't get the gig or were rejected, I didn't think it was because I was a woman. I thought, right, I need to work harder at that. And just to keep doing what you're passionate about.

In a way, just me getting this post, I know for some of the younger women I teach, people in their 40s, some are only 18 at the colleges . . . they've definitely told me that just seeing me getting a few gigs and starting to travel the world, being accepted for this role is . . . they’re really excited about it. And more and more of them are stepping up and it is a chance to maximize that opportunity, I think. So I can feel proud. My family would be proud.

Michelle: I definitely feel proud about this appointment. One more question specifically about gender before we move on. Terri Lyne Carrington said something interesting. She started the Berklee Institute of [Jazz and] Gender Justice and she said #MeToo kind of allowed her to realize that the equity efforts weren't for people like her. She was somehow able to persevere and do what she wanted to do aesthetically as a woman in jazz. It's for some women who are not able to persevere. What is it in your personality that has allowed you to endure in this world? You mentioned just working harder. What else?

Nikki: I think that's a great question. I think my childhood . . . I had a loving family that were into music. My mum played the piano; my dad was in a skiffle band. And like many of us musicians, the parents' record collection was a huge influence. But my mum, unfortunately, took an overdose when I was 10 and my dad died when I was 18.

So I never had anyone telling me what . . . that I should be going this way. Like a lot of parents . . . I know with the girls I teach at some of the schools, the parents think it's not the career for a girl, to go and study jazz. So I've never had that. And I think back now, I've always followed my heart. I'm a slow burner. I've never felt the pressure like there is today to make my first album at 17.

I just feel I'm coming into my own now, really. And to get to this age, I think there's still life in the old dog. And I want to write about some of those feelings from childhood. I think some of that big band world also, I know with a lot of the big band music, the traditional stuff here, the titles are things about beer drinking and all this kind of thing.

I remember seeing Maria Schneider working with the Ronnie Scott's big band. It's a brilliant band, but it's all male and quite a boys' club type of atmosphere. And they just fell in love with her. She stood in the middle of the club and read some of the poetry, some of the Thompson Fields . . . it was such a different aesthetic. She's come from all the things I love too—Bob Brookmeyer and all those things. But to think that you could do that and make the big band not necessarily sound like a big band and have a woman's story in this music . . . so that just made me think, yep, I'm doing it. It's just one of those things. But I think just not having a plan was good.

Michelle: One of the things I wanted to ask you about was funding for big bands. Speaking of Maria Schneider, she was an early adopter for crowdfunding with ArtistShare, to get her recordings made. And I think some people may be surprised to learn that even someone with the prestige of, say, Dave Holland is thrilled to have an opportunity to work with you next year in the NDR because it's so hard to finance these projects. I mean, you've had jazz orchestras throughout your career, right? How did you manage to realize those?

Nikki: Well, the economics of it are totally crushing, really. It's always been something I've loved, to bring people together. And as a writer or even a musician, you get to a point as a writer, you want to reach the highest and lowest extremes of dynamics and all this kind of thing. And some of the writing that might be too demanding in a small group, you want to do it. And most people get to that point where you want to do something like this.

I've had a little funding, not much, maybe two things. One, which actually gave me some lessons with Jim McNeely. And I had a lesson with Vince. I had a commission from the International Society of Jazz Arrangers and Composers. I had a big band tour actually planned just before lockdown. And it took about two years to plan with all the hotels. And I had to pay for the hotels upfront for 20 people. So it was into debt. Yeah, when lockdown happened, I almost couldn't even listen to music. It was so painful. But this commission came. And I kind of went to this piece, and it got me back in. So that was the one funding I had. And one other thing . . . but I don't seem to manage to get any funding for it. So I've been funding it myself, sometimes to the tune of something like $3,000 per gig. And that's not sustainable.

So I do teach. I do lots of things in music. I publish a lot with Oxford University Press, lots of music for . . . well, for everybody, really. So I save. To be honest, with the NDR job, even up to now, to be able to kind of record anything carte blanche, you know, the artistic focus is up to you . . to have it recorded, rehearsed properly, mixed, with time, is an absolute privilege.

Michelle: And look what happened when you had that opportunity with Face to Face. I mean, that was a phenomenally successful recording that everybody was thrilled to hear. And I think it sort of raised your profile globally in many ways.

Michelle: Another issue with big band, working with big bands, is you need to work with one to realize yourself as a composer, right? You need to actually hear your ideas, test it out. I'm kind of curious about that. I mean, you're a pianist, so you have that chordal sense in your head. Maybe that helped. But you played other instruments as well, right?

Nikki: Well, yeah, actually, I was a junior at 11 at the Royal Academy of Music as a clarinetist. That was my first thing. And then I went to the only jazz college in the UK on alto. And to be honest, I just had no teaching experience of jazz, I was just trying to get by. And Thad [Jones] used to come, because my band director was an obsessive, I mean, he wrote like Thad in a way. So we did a lot of that music and I just loved that music. And I think there was one time when there was a trumpet chair free and the guys in my year, nobody was interested. So I got my Clifford Brown transcriptions out and practiced about six hours a day. And I didn't have the chops, but I got in. I just wanted to play that music. And it didn't really matter which instrument in some ways. Do you know what I mean?

Michelle: So you have quite a bit of well-rounded experience with the big band instruments.

Nikki: Yeah, I think so, and that really does help. Because now I see lots of students, they’re writing their compositions . . . understanding the sweet spots of the instruments, where they sing, if you want to sound tense where you get them up in . . . or over the break things are a bit more dodgy and . . . and the lovely Chalumeau register of the clarinet down at the bottom. It’s just the tone colors, it goes into another level. To be honest, I'm feeling like I kind of know the sounds. I’m learning it honestly as I go. It’s like a workshop for me, I mean, I kind of know what I'm doing but I'm just getting more experience about tone color and what works.

I suppose my music's in the cracks in a way. The NDR do a lot of very avant-garde music. They work with the Ensemble Modern and they work with an oud player or really challenging . . . in some ways mine's . . . it's not old school, but I love . . . I’m not afraid about my influences. I came up through listening to your music.

Actually, Dave Holland came—it was in London—actually came to my one of my first gigs. He was lovely at the end, and he said I can hear Kenny in there I can hear a bit of Thad Jones. He said, but you've got your own thing. I'm British. I’m a British housewife trying to write. I've got all the British folk music. Especially with some of the new stuff now, I'm really trying some things. Some of those pieces on Face to Face . . . there were a few new things, but some of them were commissions: more set, with parameters. So now I'm just writing for myself for the first time in my life for big band. So it's really exciting. It's kind of scary. I mean, I saw Maria last week, she did a gig at the Barbican, and we were just saying how hard writing is. It’s just like, it's just so compelling but so painful as well.

Michelle: I’m interested in the program that you have coming up this year, your first season as chief conductor of NDR. There's this new work of yours called The Shadow of a Dream—Journeys of a Strange World. You described it as having themes of unity because of how important it is to find empathy and common ground despite the challenges we face. Can you say a bit more about that?

Nikki: I think this whole thing’s about exploring the darkness and the lightness in humanity. I put it through “the shadow of a dream” because sometimes as a writer, in my dreams, often I'm hearing all these things. I imagine all these things. And then you get up and you sit in front of the manuscript. And . . . the gap between your waking world and the dream world. So I think we all have that.

I think now there's so many conflicts in the world as it is at the moment. It's just being really honest about those things. And I've now written a bit after the American election, I've written a piece about that. About being a mother, seeing . . . about loss of innocence. You know as a parent, the moment when you think, ah, something happens or they've done something or seen something, you think childhood's over. But then you see what's going on for those children and parents in all the war-torn . . . Ukraine and Gaza. For me, it's kind of like the year goes by writing. And I just write about what's going on in my life and what really affects me. It's more about that and actually sharing those things. And it's hopefully uplifting as well. It's not all going to be doom and gloom.

Michelle: Speaking of which, there's a really compelling piece called Luminescent Landscapes, which involves the Jensen sisters, Kris Davis—some of our North Americans. What is this piece? Can you tell us about it?

Nikki: Well actually they haven't written it yet! The big concert hall in Hamburg, they have to know the titles of these things about 18 months ahead of time. I really wanted to give her a platform . . . Christine Jensen . . . she’s already broken one of the glass ceilings as being head of . . . she got one of the prestigious jobs in arranging at Eastman—Bill Dobbins's job—she’s head of arranging, which is a big job. She’s just been up for the JUNO Best Large Ensemble Award, in the Canadian awards. She’s a mom . . . we have very similar . . . we keep in touch. It’s been really lovely and very supportive. So one of the first things I thought would be lovely is to bring her but also add Kris Davis who's doing incredible things at the moment with all sorts of groups, with her groups, with Dave. And in the mix with Ingrid as one of greatest trumpet players. It just worked out. I didn't think about it being a Canadian, I didn't know Kris was Canadian actually. They wanted to call it Luminous Landscapes, so I think Kris is going to write as well and Christine so it's going to be about where they're from I think.

Michelle: Can't wait to hear that. And then there's another program you've curated called “Spinning the Wheeler.” We're assuming this is about Kenny Wheeler, the trumpeter and composer.

Nikki: The actual title of it was [Master of Melancholy Chaos] or something like that. They've added another little title here.

Michelle: Oh, the pun was not yours!

Nikki: No, no, it wasn't mine. That was the NDR spun that one. I've known Norma, as I just said before, since I was 18. And I think Kenny's music—he's Canadian, but Kenny lived in the East End of London from the sixties. And his music, their music was the backdrop to my life. I knew them, I played with them all. Dave comes to the Royal Academy about once a year as an artist in residence. He's a fantastic person, we got to know him. Obviously an amazing bass player, but so generous with everybody. And we've got to know him, which has been lovely.

And we've just recorded the last thing Kenny ever wrote, which was settings of poetry by Stevie Smith, Langston Hughes, various people. It really is like his swan song. It's absolutely beautiful. And Dave said . . . he saw my husband, Pete Churchill . . . and Dave said, I'd like to be involved. Of course, with his history. And he's been so instrumental in getting this out.

We've just heard it's going to be out on Edition Records in July. There's a new biography of Kenny Wheeler. It's the only one. So we're going to make a whole. . . maybe a week, we're still planning . . . we're going to look at a real cross-section of Kenny’s, right from the early quite free 60s music and right up to some of the music towards the end of his life, which was never played outside of Britain. And alongside that, I'm going to try and get the youth, the German youth. We work with the Bujazzo, who are the German Youth National Orchestra. And I'm going to try and get some of them with the young singers that are on the album to come together and have a Kenny Fest. Because he's such an important musician in contemporary jazz and such an unsung hero in some ways. He was very shy, but he's one of those musicians for me . . . he always said he was happy to be sad in his kind of writing, which I totally relate to.

Michelle: That’s a little bit like Joni Mitchell in some ways.

Nikki: Exactly.

Michelle: That comfort in melancholy.

Nikki: That’s it. Yeah, which has always been something like Bill Evans for me, Billie Holiday. It relates to us. Kenny, he’s really strong but not afraid to show that fragile side.

Michelle: Some of my musician friends are wondering: How would you compare the jazz landscape in the UK now to the landscape of 30 years ago?

Nikki: Ah, that's a good question. 30 years. So what would that have been?

Michelle: Mid-90s. Yeah, 90s.

Nikki: There’s far less gigs and far more musicians. So there's the challenge.

I mean, there's, it's funny even . . . and there's less funding and with the funding applications, often it's not a musician who's judging. A veteran, amazing musician, applying for his 70th birthday tour . . . getting nowhere because it wasn't a musician who knew the scene. So those are real challenges.

But the scene is bubbling over with enthusiasm and the UK's always had a really integrated, I'd say integrated scene in some ways. Like I was in, where was I? Oh, in Berlin, I was teaching at the Berlin Institute and I was having coffee with the students and we were talking about just the scene, as you do when you go to a new city. And they were saying that the free guy or girl on saxophone wouldn't know the bebopper in the same city. They just don’t cross paths. And I think the UK, I love playing standards, but I also love playing more freer stuff with Norma and it's just, it's all music in some ways. So a lot of people dip into . . . across genres in a way. But there’s a good young London scene and more diverse scene, they call it the London scene, which is kind of dance and dub and all that kind of stuff. There's large ensembles popping up all over the place with no funding, but there's a passion. But seeing it long-term is the challenge. Again, they're doing it all for nothing, but the energy is there. It's quite fantastic in some ways.

Michelle: Speaking of endurance, I just have to say I think it's really wonderful to see you gaining this post at this stage of your career. We need women not just breaking in, but women continuing to achieve. And so I just want to say it's really meaningful to a lot of us to see what you're doing.

Nikki: Thank you so much, that means a lot. I saw Marin Alsop, she's great. She was talking about this and she was saying the fact that they had the guts to—not me, but she was talking about herself—had the guts to employ an older woman . . .

But in some ways, standing in front of 19 musicians . . . you know, being a conductor . . . there's all the psychological aspects of having experience judging a group of people. There’s 19 experts in the room with egos. At 19 or 18, that's hard, isn't it? I may mispitch it. I'm new to . . . well, not a conductor in some ways. I mean, a lot of the work goes on before the gig in the jazz world rehearsing, but with the music getting harder, it's not just eight bar sections, they do need cueing and all that. So I'm going to probably come up with some challenges. I know I am and I'm going to grow, which I'm really excited about. And it's really lovely you think that. Thank you.

Michelle: So anyway, thank you so much for taking the time to talk.

Nikki: Well, thank you.

1. Nikki later wrote me that she meant to mention a few more women in the generation or two ahead that inspired her: Geri Allen, Joanne Brackeen, Toshiko Akiyoshi, Kim Clarke, and Shirley Horn—as well as Norma Winstone in Britain, as she stated in the interview.